2024-10-29
40 分钟Niall Ferguson is an intellectual provocateur. His specialty is counterfactual history — imagining how events could have unfolded differently. And he and Adam disagree on nearly everything. In this episode, Niall and Adam have a vigorous debate about the vital qualities of effective leadership in government, sports, business, and education. Available transcripts for ReThinking can be found at go.ted.com/RWAGscripts
TED Audio Collective.
That's the world I come from in which the leader is capable of rage and perhaps potentially of physical violence.
I don't know about you, but I find that concentrates the mind somewhat more than a hug.
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant.
Welcome back to Rethinking my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective.
I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.
My guest today is historian Neil Ferguson.
He's currently a fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution.
He's been named one of Times 100 Most Influential People and been knighted for his service to literature.
He's published 16 books, advised John McCain's presidential campaign, and won an International Emmy for Best documentary.
And in 2021, he co founded a new institution, the University of Austin.
To say Neil is contrarian and controversial is putting it mildly, but I don't think we should shy away from conversations with respected voices on the basis of objecting to some of their ideas.
In this case, Neil's approach to counterfactual history, considering events that could have happened but didn't, has made me think differently about effective leadership.
Our conversation began by a discussion of whether you can achieve that through being nice alone or whether you have to be a bit nasty too.
And I think history is strongly on the side of the view that you need to have at least the nastiness there as a potential.
Neil and I don't see eye to eye on much, and that's why I appreciate a conversation with him.
I learn a lot from how he thinks, even when and especially when I disagree with what he thinks.
I hope it sparks some thoughtful conversations for you too.
You know the drill.
Feel free to interrupt yourself, correct yourself, correct me all of the above.